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Pyromaniac

Official Caroler

Joined: 2015-02-15

Posts: 4,868

Re: Contest Feedback and Solutions

Rpgmaster has been enlightened!!

And takoman, your right. That would be a major problem with my idea lol....

Shy Guy

Guest

Re: Contest Feedback and Solutions

Problem: World Size/ The bigger the world offers more of a chance for appeal and votes

1. Use a certain level demension.

Meh, that's all I can come up with.

Last edited by Shy Guy (Apr 22 2011 5:22:17 am)

Nou

Member

Joined: 2015-02-24

Posts: 2,762

Re: Contest Feedback and Solutions

Problem: A single player/group can win every time.

Possible Solutions:
1. Require winning players to have none of their team members for the next contest
2. Offer rewards for being a judge so better players can judge instead of compete
3. Offer rewards for doing other aspects of the competition, such as compiling levels and teams and whatnot (relieve poor RPG of all the work)

1. Well I personally feel strongly about this of course. Although this time I had a completely different team, I wouldn't want to be forced to work with people I don't want to. Plus, all it would probably do is shuffle some players around.

2. Very good idea, an incentive to judge would be cool. The problem here of course, would be that many, MANY people would apply to be judge (as it is a guaranteed "win") and it would be a competition by itself. It will also most likely be many people who are less experienced and know they will probably lose, so their judging skills might not be on par.

3. Same as 2. Plus, does RPG find it too much work? It might not be a problem at all.

Possible Solutions:
1. Allow only contestants to vote, and not on their own level
2. Have an objective scoring system for art and minigames
3. Require judges to spend X amount of time in each level to be fair
4. Group of experienced players vote (how to pick these players, can they participate too?)
5. Several judges,each assigned a certain number of levels [~20], throws out the bad ones and takes the others to the other judges to decide.

1. This might work. If Chris would be willing to implement a system in EE itself, as he might as RPG said. A nice system would be that judges pick a top x, they will be shown somewhere in a separate tab. In that tab, there are the links to the levels. As a requirement to be able to vote, they MUST have joined all x levels first and stayed for x minutes. At least they will get an impression of all the levels before voting this way.

2. I'm not sure how this would work. It's all opinion, it can't really be objective that way.

3. See 1, good idea.

4. You already stated the issues with this one yourself.

5. Favouritism might play a role here too. Plus, that way players get to throw their complaints at specific people which is bad for them It might work though.

Possible Solutions:
1. Require a pre-requisite level or a "pre submission" requirement to weed out boring art and minis.
2. Add an "auto disqualification" for ee smilies in the level =.=

1. I 100% agree it should clearly be related to the theme!

2. Haha, yea I agree
Public voting will NOT work. As Failgirl and others already pointed out: the system will be abused. Proxyvoting and favouritism is a problem there. Additionally, the EE playerbase is very impatient. Last contest there were so many people that voted for a level when it was the first one they had played and they wanted to vote for ours but it was too late already. In other words: the masses should not be able to vote.

The problem on the other hand is that everybody has his own taste in levels, so in a small group of judge there is much influence of personal taste rather than judging skill. I'm not trying to offend the judges of course, they did a great job but a larger group of judges would most likely seem fairer to most.

lWhen you say then same people always win, I agree. It's not fair, but there is alot at stake. The judges can't let people with bad levels win, because it wouldn't be fair to those with good levels. I think though that eventually EE will have so many great artists it will be really hard to pick a winner.

How is it not fair? I've worked my **** in both competitions. You have no idea how many hours we've put into our maps. As DK said in some other thread: other people should improve. It makes sense that the same people win when they make better levels all the time .

1. There would basically be a running thread in a contest forum. People would apply to gain access to the "eligible contest participants" list.Once on this list they are allowed to participate in any contests. Applications would include their max energy in game (would need to be over 225 or something minimal that would mean they have played for at least a week) as well as a sample level of their own or co-op work.

I don't think that's a good idea, I think everybody should still be able to compete. That system would really look like elitism and many, many people will complain when they're not deemed 'eligible'. Just look at people asking to be mod, join EX Crew or get voice on the new IRC channel. They always want explanations and they will feel even worse than when they didn't win.
Additionally, amount of max energy does not directly correlate with level designing skills, so I'd leave that part out.

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treejoe4

Guest

Re: Contest Feedback and Solutions

How about different categories, for example the best levels in mingames in art would win, but other levels with good art but poor mins and minigames with poor art can win but with less of a prize like no energy but a smiley

Wezza

Guest

Re: Contest Feedback and Solutions

1. Require winning players to have none of their team members for the next contest

Ok, i understand that you find it unfair for other people, cause they may not have a change for winning then. But people join the contest together cause they know they can work good together and make a nice map, when you prohibit this there is a change you will get more levels with bad art/mini's. Most people (w/ me) probably want to compeet with the best, when you do this you get more better maps.

you might want to change this to somethink like "Require winning players to have not more then 2 of their team members for the next contest". This could work too.

Surf

Guest

Re: Contest Feedback and Solutions

I believe there is alot of bias because of the art going on. I think once the judges see a map with very nice art they basically think the map is uber and extremely fun to play. The judges shouldnt think, oh well I dont want to give them a bad fun mark because their level is very pretty.

I therefore suggest there be categories which each get a mark out of ten. All the judges then add these points together and calculate a level that way. This would mean there should be more judges to create a more broad vision of the maps.

Nou

Member

Joined: 2015-02-24

Posts: 2,762

Re: Contest Feedback and Solutions

I believe there is alot of bias because of the art going on. I think once the judges see a map with very nice art they basically think the map is uber and extremely fun to play. The judges shouldnt think, oh well I dont want to give them a bad fun mark because their level is very pretty.

I therefore suggest there be categories which each get a mark out of ten. All the judges then add these points together and calculate a level that way. This would mean there should be more judges to create a more broad vision of the maps.

Actually, RPGMaster specifically said they focused most on the challenges. Why do you think treejoe didn't win?

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mustang

Guest

Re: Contest Feedback and Solutions

After reading all the responses and concerns in this thread, I propose the following changes to improve future contests.

Judging - The panel of judges needs to be expanded to perhaps around 10 or so, although this number is arbitrary and can be set to a different number. Judges will be drawn upon mods and past contest winners, and all those who judge should be awarded just the exclusive smiley (no added energy) as compensation for their time and for forfeiting their chance at competing in the contest. Judges should be cycled whenever possible, meaning at least some members of the panel of judges should change every contest to try to maintain fairness and an unbiased assessment of maps. Mods will take applications from the past winners for judges, and choose based on the criteria they establish.

Voting - Voting can be manipulated and should play no role in determining the winner. Having an experienced and trustworthy panel of judges of around 10 members will be the best solution to overcome the problems associated with everyone voting and with having only a few judges.

Criteria - The requirements of the contest need to be stated a bit more clearly, as in possible disqualifications should be listed and the breakdown of how the judges will assess the maps must be known. For example, it could be stated that failing to include enough art to clearly connect the map to the contest theme would result in a disqualification, and it could be explained that 60% of the final score for a contest map comes from the minis, 30% from the art, and 10% from creativity. This way, the contestants will know what to focus on when making their maps and not accidentally spend too much time in any one area. However, it's best not to set a rigid checklist where the judges give scores to different criteria, and instead judges should try to agree on their top picks based on the stated breakdown.

Categories - Splitting the contest into different categories will either be impossible to properly enforce, or result in lower quality maps. The idea to split the novices from the pros seems to make sense in theory, but in practice it will be extremely difficult to accurately split the novices from the pros without making mistakes. It adds a very messy extra step to the equation that will likely spark more controversy and complaints in the long run, and it will not provide the same incentive for novices to develop their skills so they can compete with the pros.

Awarding prizes for best minis and best art will greatly dilute the quality of the maps, as many contestants will attempt to win only one of the prizes. This will result in maps with terrible art but fun minis, and maps with amazing art but terrible or no minis. The greatest challenge in map making is balancing art with minis, and trying to make the two connected in a seamless manner. Removing this essential challenge that all map makers face defeats much of the purpose of a contest, so this idea should not be implemented.

Teams - Rules that would stop a contestant from being on the same team after winning will likely not stop the problem of seeing the same groups always win. It's best to allow players the freedom to choose whatever teammates they like, but to try and lure some of the most talented into the judging pool which will solve this problem without causing new complaints. Perhaps if a team happened to win many contests in a row, it would be acceptable to ask them to sit out or judge the next contest. However, having a rigid rule of breaking up the best teams will likely lower the quality of the competition as the favorites are constantly removed and no one has to step up their map making skills to win.

I hope all my recommendations are considered, and perhaps a few of these will even make sense to implement in future contests.

BEE

Member

Joined: 2015-03-14

Posts: 1,679

Re: Contest Feedback and Solutions

2. Very good idea, an incentive to judge would be cool. The problem here of course, would be that many, MANY people would apply to be judge (as it is a guaranteed "win") and it would be a competition by itself. It will also most likely be many people who are less experienced and know they will probably lose, so their judging skills might not be on par.

I was thinking more of "You had to be a contest winner to be considered for a judge. I like mustang's solution the best tbh: getting any smiley rewards but not energy, or if only energy is offered, perhaps half energy reward?

Plus, does RPG find it too much work? It might not be a problem at all.

Considering how he got upset when I asked him a question about the contest I think it can sometimes get on his nerves haha.

2. Have an objective scoring system for art and minigames
2. I'm not sure how this would work. It's all opinion, it can't really be objective that way.

I was thinking more like general checklist guidelines than something completely objective. For example, for this contest I would have gone with:

Rating on a scale of 0-5:
Easter Themed:
Originality of Art:
Originality of Mini games:
Quality of Art:
Quality/"funness" of mini games:

1. Require a pre-requisite level or a "pre submission" requirement to weed out boring art and minis.
1. I 100% agree it should clearly be related to the theme!

I'm confused as to how your response is related to what you were referring to lol

I don't think that's a good idea, I think everybody should still be able to compete. That system would really look like elitism and many, many people will complain when they're not deemed 'eligible'. Just look at people asking to be mod, join EX Crew or get voice on the new IRC channel. They always want explanations and they will feel even worse than when they didn't win.

The difference between the eligibility and modship and excrew is that eligibility will have an application with certain requirements and you will be accepted or asked to try again another time. For modship, people always want to be a mod because they think its a popularity contest. For EXcrew they simply want in because they want some of your famousness to rub off on them. I was also thinking that eligibility would have very very low requirements.

I agree, however, that it would be a lot more work added to the competitions though.

Basically the reason I would want a step in between the "submission" and "winners" is because it softens the blow. There was a lot less complaining for the new years comeptition and I think its because we had a "top ten" and then the winners were picked from that. I feel that if things are narrowed down, then instead of "winners" and "losers" we have "winners, " almost winners", and "losers".

Take "wake up its easter" for example, I feel that if we had a "finals" round, where it was picked as a finalist, then others were picked to be better, they wouldnt feel like their work was put in the same "losers" category as that butt-bunny. I hope Im making sense here... being a "finalist" is pretty good, and not quite losing.

Ill respond to mustang in a sec

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Nou

Member

Joined: 2015-02-24

Posts: 2,762

Re: Contest Feedback and Solutions

stuff

I don't want to be boring, but I agree completely.

About the same people winning: as I've said before, it means the others just need to improve, it'd be unfair and even childish to force people to sit out (without having some other task).

Basically the reason I would want a step in between the "submission" and "winners" is because it softens the blow. There was a lot less complaining for the new years comeptition and I think its because we had a "top ten" and then the winners were picked from that. I feel that if things are narrowed down, then instead of "winners" and "losers" we have "winners, " almost winners", and "losers".

That's a very good point. Lots of people seem to feel their effort isn't appreciated at all, while they were genuinely good levels. A finalists round would be nice, it will also excite people a bit more

Last edited by Nou (Apr 22 2011 11:55:41 am)

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BEE

Member

Joined: 2015-03-14

Posts: 1,679

Re: Contest Feedback and Solutions

@ Mustang

Judging - I agree.
Voting - While I feel that technically we COULD do some sort of voting to make it fair and limited and non manupulatable, I feel this would be too much work to actually implement.
Criteria - Yes.
Categories - Mhm
Teams - Yup.

Lol

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BEE

Member

Joined: 2015-03-14

Posts: 1,679

Re: Contest Feedback and Solutions

Old first post: (for linking purposes)

Okay all, There are a few problems with the current contest set up so lets address this and offer possible solutions:

Problem: A single player/group can win every time.

Possible Solutions:
1. Require winning players to have none of their team members for the next contest
2. Offer rewards for being a judge so better players can judge instead of compete
3. Offer rewards for doing other aspects of the competition, such as compiling levels and teams and whatnot (relieve poor RPG of all the work)

Problem: Objectivity (Judges vs voting)

Possible Solutions:
1. Allow only contestants to vote, and not on their own level
2. Have an objective scoring system for art and minigames
3. Require judges to spend X amount of time in each level to be fair
4. Group of experienced players vote (how to pick these players, can they participate too?)
5. Several judges,each assigned a certain number of levels [~20], throws out the bad ones and takes the others to the other judges to decide.

Problem: Lack of creativity

Possible Solutions:
1. Require a pre-requisite level or a "pre submission" requirement to weed out boring art and minis.
2. Add an "auto disqualification" for ee smilies in the level =.=
Other problems and solutions I can add to the list?

Last edited by BEE (Apr 22 2011 12:25:38 pm)

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JadElClemens

Member

From: Colorado, USA

Joined: 2015-02-15

Posts: 4,559

Re: Contest Feedback and Solutions

This way, newbies aren't trying to compete with pros.

This. I didn't know what I was gonna do if I hadn't have joined a team.

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Shinabi

Guest

Re: Contest Feedback and Solutions

In my ideal situation, the contest would not be "sign up" but rather "judges pick from everyone who wants to submit a level."

1. There would basically be a running thread in a contest forum. People would apply to gain access to the "eligible contest participants" list.Once on this list they are allowed to participate in any contests. Applications would include their max energy in game (would need to be over 225 or something minimal that would mean they have played for at least a week) as well as a sample level of their own or co-op work.

2. The theme would then be announced to the eligibles who could then form teams with other eligibles. (To prevent a mass overload, you would shut down eligibility applications a few days before the contest is   announced)

3. Judges would then be made up of either all eligibles, or just the ones who did not participate this time. They could get one or two votes (depending on whether or not we let them vote for their own level).
Thoughts?
Oh and:

even though you were allowed to enter with a large or wide world, there were no large or wide winners.

No one actually submitted a wide world and I believe TGT was the only submitter for a large one.
Edit2:   Also, I feel like stickies are not good for discussions, especially in this forum where stickies are pretty much ignored. I honestly thought my thread was deleted or moved until I looked in my profile for it.

No.

I have been playing for a LOOONG time, yet I have only 217. So suddenly, I can't participate! Some people are not lucky at all, and cannot find magic coins. My idea is, you have to show at least 1 completed world you have already made in order to participate. Sorry if this has been said already.

mustang

Guest

Re: Contest Feedback and Solutions

This way, newbies aren't trying to compete with pros.

This. I didn't know what I was gonna do if I hadn't have joined a team.

As I stated in my post above, it's just far too difficult and arbitrary to divide EE players into a "Novice" and "Pro" category, and even more arbitrary is coming up with a system to decide which player fits what label. There will be many unhappy people who didn't get their preferred category, and lots of complaining will ensue after the contest ends with many feeling they were cheated. Expect to see claims of "well the novice winners should have been in the pro category", and "I lost because I was forced into the pro category", and so on.

There's nothing wrong with everyone competing together and learning from the experience by not winning at first. It's not all about winning, clearly with 100+ entries and only 10 winners there will be many people who don't win, it's about enjoying the map making experience and having fun while becoming a better map creator.

Shift

Guest

Re: Contest Feedback and Solutions

Ok, I just came up with an amazing idea.

Have the contest as is. When it comes down to the judging, they divide all the levels into 2 groups: Basic or Advanced.

There is one winner per group.

This way, newbies aren't trying to compete with pros. Pros will always win the way it is now, making it unfair for non-pros.

Great idea! The judges would have to decide on whether the level is basic or advanced, though, not by choice.

Also, I think the judges have to be a lot more strict as far as on-topic levels go. The majority of levels entered for the Easter Contest has a couple eggs, and maybe some sort of animal (granted, this included mine). The part that really bugs me is that a Halloween-themed level (with a couple eggs) actually won! Of course, it was really good, but eggs don't make the holiday.

BEE

Member

Joined: 2015-03-14

Posts: 1,679

Re: Contest Feedback and Solutions

Dont worry Shinabi, Nou already told me I was stupid for suggesting that

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EE_Scythe

Guest

Re: Contest Feedback and Solutions

It could be a bit more challenging to make Art for Non-Beta Users because they don't have a full Color Set that a Beta User would have using Beta Blocks. Just wanted to throw that in to see if there would be a Solution to better help Non-Betas. Not sure if this has been brought up yet.

MIHB

Guest

Re: Contest Feedback and Solutions

I think it would be nice if there were "mentor" contests where elite builders work with less experienced builders.   This would help inexperienced builders develop faster, by building under the guidance of an experienced mentor.

TheGreenTroll

Guest

Re: Contest Feedback and Solutions

There should only be one first place winner. This competition was a f****** joke with those five first place winners, it's sooo bad.

Muftwin

Guest

Re: Contest Feedback and Solutions

what about a judge smiley? for judges could have a gavel or something

might be cool

mustang

Guest

Re: Contest Feedback and Solutions

I think it would be nice if there were "mentor" contests where elite builders work with less experienced builders.   This would help inexperienced builders develop faster, by building under the guidance of an experienced mentor.

Don't listen to him, he's just trying to create a new front from which he can snare more helpless players into his web of slavery and servitude by posing as the "mentor" and "guiding" (aka taking all the credit) his "underlings"

On a more serious note, this is not a bad idea if it's properly refined and fleshed out. Some issues that would have to be worked out includes:

*Drawing the line between experienced and inexperienced builders in a non-arbitrary manner.
*Choosing an appropriate compensation for the mentors independent of the map judgment to encourage experienced players to take the risk by working with inexperienced builders.
*Some sort of honesty check to ensure the experienced builder didn't make most of the map and didn't invite other experienced builders to help (this will be very difficult to stop).

On a separate but related note, I think the best way to help the novice builders is to provide for them their own fully independent contest with perhaps a maximum energy cutoff for participants (e.g. 250-300 energy is the maximum allowed) and/or a much lesser prize to discourage pros from entering (e.g. prize is only +250 energy). These smaller contests will give novice builders much needed experience so they can then enter the larger contests with much more confidence and skill.

teevie

Guest

Re: Contest Feedback and Solutions

People have already mentioned that the levels have to have a certain criteria to have a chance to win. I havent thouroughly read the whole of the thread so didnt see if anyone posted about the users being able to have a say in the criteria. I mentioned this in the Easter competition winners on page 5 and RPGMaster said that it seemed like a good idea. Also possibly users could vote not on the winner but on the theme of the next competiton. For example there could be like a space theme, a wild west theme, a jungle theme and an ice theme and then the players vote over which it should be. Of course the themes would be more exact than jungle and ice but i have no imagination and at the moment its half ten at night so im half asleep half writing a post in a thread on how to possibly improve a bit of this game that make the whole idea of the game more fun. But i think that both of these suggstions gives the user a bit more choice in the competition and encourage them to look out for the upcoming compeitions.

Last edited by teevie (Apr 22 2011 3:37:57 pm)

BEE

Member

Joined: 2015-03-14

Posts: 1,679

Re: Contest Feedback and Solutions

Mustang needs a "tl;dr" translator

Guess thats me for now!

I like being able to vote on the theme!

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Penguin

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Re: Contest Feedback and Solutions

It should have more mod judges and EEer judges.   maps cannot have any name or identification.   all voting is anonymous (voters dont know whose map it is).   the prizes that are smileys or brix arent exclusive, they are released later in the future but with a lot of energy required.   there are many hard owrking EE collectors out there!